I like to challenge myself to convert people to the pro-gun side whenever humanly possible. I always present as many facts as possible, as clear as I possibly can.
My understanding is that not everyone knows what I do about firearms and it’s my goal to try and educate them.
However, as you’ll see in the following conversation that occurred between me, another pro-gun friend, and a dude who clearly only wants gun control legislation, at the end of the argument he remained ignorant.
Most of them do remain in the dark, as this has happened for me numerous times, no matter the argument I present.
I have removed last names to keep privacy between the individuals. I come in below, under “Me.” Also, the below remains otherwise unedited, all mistakes in grammar are left even though it is somewhat cringeworthy and hard to read at times.
This conversation took place on Facebook on my friend’s timeline after he posted something pro-gun.
Toby is anti-gun. John is pro-gun. And I’m obviously pro-gun.
Toby:
Remember when Reagan banned automatic weapons? I don’t, I wants alive yet, but he did. Things changed since then. There is a reason the second amendment was updated many times.
John:
this isn’t simply about banning one certain type of firearm. This is about making gun ownership difficult for many Americans and it’s also about paving the way for eventual gun confiscation. Fortunately it won’t work. Our nation is unlike any other nation. We won’t give up our firearms and to be sure gun ownership is one issue that both Democrat and Republican citizens have a stake in.
Toby:
I think it is way too easy to get a gun and agree we should make obtaining one more difficult. And to the point “people won’t give up their guns,” I am sure most will follow the law and the rest will spend time in jail. The founding fathers absolutely did not want every drunk uncle and their racist handicapped kid to have a gun. Cars kill a lot of people which is why we have speed limits, registration, insurance, license tests and renewal. The conservative thing to do is gun safety laws because they protect life.
John:
There are over 300 gun laws on the books federally, over 20,000 among the states. There are plenty of gun laws. Very gun I own I bought only after going through a federal background check. It’s standard procedure when buying a gun. Our 2nd amendment allows for all law abiding citizens to own guns. No matter what their beliefs or opinions. Drunk uncle? Racist handicapped kid? You sound very pretentious there my friend. Especially when you consider that the Demographic of American gun owners is a diverse one. Also considering this bill will harm people who are not well off financially. This bill is nothing more than a step towards gun confiscation. To your other point no, Americans won’t give up their guns and no we won’t be spending time in jail…that’s why we have a second amendment. Those representatives who champion these types of bills will be voted out. If this passes 2022 will be a dark day at the polls for anyone who voted for it.
Me:
I work for one of the largest gun publications on the internet and talk to countless people about this very topic. I wrote an article on this asinine bill that this crazy lady is trying to pass and there were tons of comments expressing the thoughts of the people. I can say that gun owners as a whole have decided that they’re not going to be giving up any guns. Anyone who thinks that we are is delusional. And there aren’t enough jail cells in the country. I love to debate people on this stuff. The Second Amendment has never changed. It has always read the same way since it was penned. A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Don’t worry, I’m not one of those folks afraid to talk about the well regulated militia part. I’m willing to go there and explain what well regulated meant back in the 1700s, but it might be better for anyone who doesn’t understand to just Google it. And at the end of the day, driving a car is a privilege. Keeping and bearing arms is a right guaranteed by the Constitution.
Toby:
what people say and what people do are completely different. Dilutional would be like thinking people on the internet will back up their word. And our country is number 1 in jail cells. Most people own hand guns and shot guns which are the leading causes of dead by bullet via suicide and then homicide. That is a different topic and two guns that can and will never be banded in America. And please tell me your perspective on how these well regulated militia are abiding or breaking the 2a
(responding to John) did you just argue alcoholics and people with mental health conditions, both severely limiting the brain motor sense, should own guns? That is madness man! Also, we should get rid of a lot of those laws because they have loopholes or served their purpose. We need a 2021 approach, not a 1791 approach when printing and milling was not a home hobby.
John:
no I didn’t argue that point because you didn’t specify. You simply used inflammatory and rude labels to describe toe people who could possibly own guns. The federal government is far larger and more overreaching than in 1791. This only heightens the need to own and bear arms United States citizens. I own firearms to defend myself and my family. As weapons of war have advanced over the years from muskets to repeating rifles to semi automatic and now automatic rifles so gun ownership has evolved as well. The overwhelming amount of gun violence in the United States stems from weapons that are obtained illegally. Responsible gun owner ship is not a problem in our country. That is why the motives behind this bill are so clear. They aren’t for safety purposes. They are for control and eventual confiscation. It simply won’t work in our country. Too many people on guns. To be honest with you I feel like this will only stand to unify people on the left and people on the right against a government that is far too large at this point. It’s going to backfire, no pun intended.
Me (responding to Toby):
I don’t disagree that there will be some disconnect between what some people say and then what they do. That’s obvious because we live in the Netflix generation where people would rather have their comfort over anything else.
That said, when you take a look at the demographics of gun owners and realize that 65-75 percent of all 18 million veterans who have ever served are conservatives, many of whom are gun owners, things begin to change a bit. Why? Because they don’t care about comfort.
These are people who are pissed off about the direction our country is going in and see that our rights are about to be trampled. I’m a Marine veteran and can say that those estimates are pretty close to accurate depending on the branch the person served in.
Not only are a majority of them not going to give up their guns because so many vets signed up to protect the United States and the Constitution, you can look at similar attempts in other countries as an example.
For example, let’s look at the confiscation of New Zealand that took place just in 2019. We see that only an estimated 1/3 to half of the “banned” guns were turned in and they don’t even have a Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
Americans, who do have freedom and a Constitutional right to keep and bear arms, are not just about to roll over. As far as jail cells go, I agree. We are number 1. We also have a huge incarceration rate. I just looked and saw that we have almost 2.3 million people in jail across these United States right now.
While that’s an interesting number, a far more interesting number is the the amount of gun owners in just one state. Taking Pennsylvania for example, PA has 930,815 licensed hunters. Not all of them are going to use guns for hunting, but most are gun owners.
And if that’s not impressive, PA also has 1.275 million concealed carry license holders. In other words, the state of Pennsylvania alone has almost as many gun owners as the United States has inmates (and if legal gun owners were really the problem, I think you’d know).
So again I say, there aren’t enough jail cells. And even if there were, it seems as though we would have to kick all of the violent criminals out of jail just to make room for the people who have been bending over backwards to stay in compliance with arbitrary laws for the past several decades because they’d be made criminals overnight.
And why? Because some freedom-hating politician decided they didn’t like something that they owned. Finally, I’m not sure what you wanted me to state regarding the militia, but the militia are the people. 10 USC 246 defines what the militia is.
Might be a good idea for anyone unsure to familiarize themselves with it. Oh and one last thing, it has always been a thing for people to make their own guns and it has always been legal to do so. For example Paul Revere made cannons and gun powder. Why?
Because he could.
How else would genius inventors like Sam Colt and John Browning get started in manufacturing guns before they were actually gun manufacturers?
Technology may change, but rights do not.
Toby:
I love how you brought up post military civilian gun ownership. They all have to register their guns. Everyone should do that. We have a mess, very poorly regulated system. The laws need to be simple and should not be so easy that people with mental handicaps or substance abuse dependencies (I guess John is the PC police and got offended) should not own guns. Anyway, as you go on about your hypothesis which I appreciate the facts, hopefully you can propose a solution to our appalling problem.
not having adequate gun safety laws already has backfired, pun intended. People are dying. Propose a solution.
Me:
I’ve never had to register my guns, again I’m a vet. Anyway, I don’t have a lot of time.
In the below news video (from NBC) is a story from North Carolina about criminals not being reported to the national instant criminal background check system with people who should have been barred from owning guns (because they were felons), but were not and slipped through the cracks.
I don’t remember the exact number because it’s been a while since I watched the video, but there was something like 150,000 crimes not reported just in that one state. Many of those people should have been disqualified from gun ownership and were not.
After it was fixed and those crimes spanning back decades were finally reported, several of those people (I think it was 70 or 80 people in the course of a couple of months after it was fixed) were denied the purchase of a gun.
The background check system works when it is followed. When it is not followed because law enforcement failed to report crime, it has no chance to work.
My proposal is that the current system works when governmental agencies at local and state levels follow the law and report on crimes like they’re supposed to.
They should be held accountable to follow that law.
Here is the video: https://www.wral.com/impossible-to-know-how…/18567458/
The removal of American freedom should be the last thing on anyone’s tongue when there are other options, like making sure the laws already on the books are followed properly. If one state was broken, I’m pretty sure others are, as well. This debate has been fun, and I hope we both come away with extra info.
John (responding to Toby):
no worries, I’m not offended, you just weren’t clear with your inflammatory labels. More gun laws won’t stop gun violence. This is evidenced in starts like NY, NJ, CA and IL. These states have strict gun laws without loopholes and strict enforcement and still have a high rate of gun violence. I’ll repeat it again. A careful reading of this gun bill makes it clear that this is simply about making it harder for all citizens to own guns and will eventually make confiscation easier.
Personally I experienced the system work. I was purchasing a firearm last year and I witnessed a gentleman in the store be denied sale because he didn’t pass the background check. Like Josh said, when law enforcement correctly reports crimes the system works great.
Toby (in response to me):
yeah man, the national registry is a joke. It is based on the honor code. Yeah, ex criminals are going to openly admit they committed a crime and give up their gun. Not a chance. The background system has too many loopholes and is not serious. We need a real universal background check that store owners can access, something like the pedophile registry.
Me (back to Toby):
It’s almost as if you haven’t read a word I said. The system works when it is used. Good luck with all of your misinformation though. I’m officially bowing out of this conversation.
Conclusion:
What this entire thing proves between me, another pro-gun friend, and someone who just wants to have rights taken away, is that no amount of common sense and fact presentation will work to change the mind of someone who just wants to have guns banned.
At one point he asked for a proposal on how to fix all of this “gun violence” which I gave to him, and he ignored because he asked for another proposal.
The point I’m trying to make with this whole thing, is that no amount of facts or correct thinking will ever be able to change the mind of someone who makes decisions based on emotion alone, who is force fed what to believe.
And this, my friends, means that our struggle is an uphill one.
